the ever-evolving time travel post
Nov. 29th, 2008 01:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
roxybisquaintHappiness is...
An hour long discussion with the man about time travel.
I've always gone with the multiple timelines theory, but![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
life_on_queen argues there's a single timeline in the TSCC verse. So after a brief "single timeline!" / "multiple timelines!" exchange, I took the discussion to real life and mentioned it to the man. He wasn't interested in talking about it. "Single timeline," he said. "Let's watch TV."
Augh.
I grabbed pen and paper, started drawing diagrams and talking about Derek and Jesse. Next thing you know, the man is all into it, grabbing my pen and paper and drawing his own diagrams. Much debate and pages of back and forth scribbles later (with a very annoying pen that kept refusing to write), he declared there must be multiple timelines (and also "let's watch TV").
Here is a coherent version (I think) of what we came up with:
I got to pondering when exactly a new timeline is created. When my husband and I were discussing it, we went with a new timeline being created as soon as someone arrives. Really, we both agreed that the new timeline wouldn't be created until the time traveler actually did something to affect the future. But without knowing how significant such an event has to be, we went with the butterfly effect/chaos theory — that the slightest alteration of anything could result in a chain reaction that leads to a different future. Therefore, a new timeline is most likely created as soon as someone arrives (especially since time travel in the terminator world involves electrical disturbances, big holes cut into the landing spot and naked time jumpers walking about).
The problem with that is it doesn't mesh with T1. In that, the terminator and Kyle did not arrive simultaneously. The terminator arrived first and, by this theory, would have triggered a new timeline. If that had happened, though, Kyle would not have been able to intercept him and Sarah likely would have been killed. Well, that's no good.
For the sake of the film, it looks like I'm going to have to skip the chaos theory and wait for something bigger to trigger a new timeline. Of course, the terminator kills some punks very soon after arrival in T1 and that's clearly action that would impact the future. But I'll have to wash that away by suggesting their deaths are irrelevant until other people are affected by them or until the punks missed doing something they would have done had they not been killed. Since they were out partying, it's possible they would have passed out and not been missed at all until the next day when Kyle had already arrived. It's very thin logic, but then again, we're dealing in the theoretics of time travel as applied to a 24-year-old work of fiction :P
Soooooo... in the terminator universe, a new timeline is not created until something significant has happened (as a result of the time traveler's presence) that causes a chain reaction of events that alters the future's previous path. That doesn't necessarily affect my diagram since I'm dealing in years and not specific dates. But it does mean that it's possible for a time traveler's original future to remain intact for a period of time, allowing someone else from that same timeline to follow them. It also opens up the possibility that not every time jumper actually creates a new timeline.
To put that into a specific TSCC example, it could be that the discovery of Andy Goode's death was the thing that finally caused a new timeline to emerge from Derek's time jump. Or it could be that Vick actually came from the same timeline as Derek and it was his killing of Barbara that caused a new timeline. Whichever it was, that would also be the point, then, that Derek's original future was closed off (people from his future could no longer get to the timeline he's in now). And that brings us to Jesse. She and Derek clearly share some memories, but they also have different memories because the future was altered. Well, if her future was different then she could not have come from the same timeline that he did. She came from the new timeline created when Andy Goode was found dead (or Barbara or whatever event it was that created the new future).
This Jesse never actually knew our Derek. And our Derek never knew her. She knew the young Derek who's now just a kid in the current 2007 timeline. It's technically the same Derek, but since his future is changed to some extent, he won't end up the exact same person as our Derek — he won't ever know Billy Wisher, for example. Likewise, Jesse's not the exact same person our Derek once knew either. This Jesse is also just a kid someplace in 2007 who will grow up in a future that's different from the one in which she knew our Derek. Make sense? Heh. Probably not. Don't worry. You don't need to understand it. I've got it all worked out right up here *taps head* ;)
One last thing I'll throw in here is that I don't really see timelines as being these rigid lines fanning out away from each other. I think they're more like spiraling paths that intertwine and can even intersect. If Derek and Jesse share identical memories of any specific event, for example, that could be a segment where their different timelines actually overlapped. Of course, that also means it would theoretically be possible for someone to jump from one timeline to another. But in order to do that, they'd have to actually know where and when those timelines intersect and I can't think how that would be possible.
An hour long discussion with the man about time travel.
I've always gone with the multiple timelines theory, but
life_on_queen argues there's a single timeline in the TSCC verse. So after a brief "single timeline!" / "multiple timelines!" exchange, I took the discussion to real life and mentioned it to the man. He wasn't interested in talking about it. "Single timeline," he said. "Let's watch TV." Augh.
I grabbed pen and paper, started drawing diagrams and talking about Derek and Jesse. Next thing you know, the man is all into it, grabbing my pen and paper and drawing his own diagrams. Much debate and pages of back and forth scribbles later (with a very annoying pen that kept refusing to write), he declared there must be multiple timelines (and also "let's watch TV").
Here is a coherent version (I think) of what we came up with:
I got to pondering when exactly a new timeline is created. When my husband and I were discussing it, we went with a new timeline being created as soon as someone arrives. Really, we both agreed that the new timeline wouldn't be created until the time traveler actually did something to affect the future. But without knowing how significant such an event has to be, we went with the butterfly effect/chaos theory — that the slightest alteration of anything could result in a chain reaction that leads to a different future. Therefore, a new timeline is most likely created as soon as someone arrives (especially since time travel in the terminator world involves electrical disturbances, big holes cut into the landing spot and naked time jumpers walking about).
The problem with that is it doesn't mesh with T1. In that, the terminator and Kyle did not arrive simultaneously. The terminator arrived first and, by this theory, would have triggered a new timeline. If that had happened, though, Kyle would not have been able to intercept him and Sarah likely would have been killed. Well, that's no good.
For the sake of the film, it looks like I'm going to have to skip the chaos theory and wait for something bigger to trigger a new timeline. Of course, the terminator kills some punks very soon after arrival in T1 and that's clearly action that would impact the future. But I'll have to wash that away by suggesting their deaths are irrelevant until other people are affected by them or until the punks missed doing something they would have done had they not been killed. Since they were out partying, it's possible they would have passed out and not been missed at all until the next day when Kyle had already arrived. It's very thin logic, but then again, we're dealing in the theoretics of time travel as applied to a 24-year-old work of fiction :P
Soooooo... in the terminator universe, a new timeline is not created until something significant has happened (as a result of the time traveler's presence) that causes a chain reaction of events that alters the future's previous path. That doesn't necessarily affect my diagram since I'm dealing in years and not specific dates. But it does mean that it's possible for a time traveler's original future to remain intact for a period of time, allowing someone else from that same timeline to follow them. It also opens up the possibility that not every time jumper actually creates a new timeline.
To put that into a specific TSCC example, it could be that the discovery of Andy Goode's death was the thing that finally caused a new timeline to emerge from Derek's time jump. Or it could be that Vick actually came from the same timeline as Derek and it was his killing of Barbara that caused a new timeline. Whichever it was, that would also be the point, then, that Derek's original future was closed off (people from his future could no longer get to the timeline he's in now). And that brings us to Jesse. She and Derek clearly share some memories, but they also have different memories because the future was altered. Well, if her future was different then she could not have come from the same timeline that he did. She came from the new timeline created when Andy Goode was found dead (or Barbara or whatever event it was that created the new future).
This Jesse never actually knew our Derek. And our Derek never knew her. She knew the young Derek who's now just a kid in the current 2007 timeline. It's technically the same Derek, but since his future is changed to some extent, he won't end up the exact same person as our Derek — he won't ever know Billy Wisher, for example. Likewise, Jesse's not the exact same person our Derek once knew either. This Jesse is also just a kid someplace in 2007 who will grow up in a future that's different from the one in which she knew our Derek. Make sense? Heh. Probably not. Don't worry. You don't need to understand it. I've got it all worked out right up here *taps head* ;)
One last thing I'll throw in here is that I don't really see timelines as being these rigid lines fanning out away from each other. I think they're more like spiraling paths that intertwine and can even intersect. If Derek and Jesse share identical memories of any specific event, for example, that could be a segment where their different timelines actually overlapped. Of course, that also means it would theoretically be possible for someone to jump from one timeline to another. But in order to do that, they'd have to actually know where and when those timelines intersect and I can't think how that would be possible.
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no subject
on 2008-12-05 05:55 am (UTC)Did they? I thought it was daytime when Kyle left the store. Oh wait - I remember the cop shining his search light now.
the people with the IP rights really need to pay more attention to their own details.
For real. It drives me crazy when they make simple mistakes with dates. Also when they change dates fro seemingly no apparent reason.
--
Okay, so about this time travel thing (which I seem incapable of wrapping my head around tonight)...
I like the multiverse idea too, but I don't necessarily see every possibility for the infinity of time as co-existing simultaneously. I think at any given moment, every possibility exists for the next moment, but maybe not beyond that. Each action keys the next set of paths. In a sense, they all coexist theoretically, but not in actuality.
I see our terminator story is being told in the past, not the present. It's "once upon a time" with time twisty elements. Each time someone new arrives from the future (which is really the present), it signals how the path changed.
Or something like that ;)
I'm still withholding judgment on Jesse at this point. Primarily because I think she's a liar. It's impossible to figure out if she came from Derek's future because I don't trust a single word that comes out of her mouth.
Yeah, she's a liar all right. And I guess it is possible she came from Derek's future and is just fucking with him. What makes me think she actually is from another future, though, is that if she's not, Fischer went along with the con. I wouldn't rule that out, but I think it's a less likely scenario.
no subject
on 2008-12-05 01:02 pm (UTC)And I guess it is possible she came from Derek's future and is just fucking with him. What makes me think she actually is from another future, though, is that if she's not, Fischer went along with the con. I wouldn't rule that out, but I think it's a less likely scenario.
I'm mostly just frustrated by all the Derek/Jesse/Fischer action because I think it really is the most concrete illustration we've had to date as to how the actions of John, Sarah and Derek are possibly changing the future and yet ... I find Jesse and Fischer to be such unreliable sources of information that I don't really trust anything they say or do. I think that even if there is a grain of truth in what they're saying, they're both probably distorting the facts to suit their own needs.
Oh and so I started thinking about this too, but every time Jesse talks about the future!john!connor and Cameron, it's always in present tense, like Cameron was still with future!John when Jesse jumped back. Again, she's a LIAR!, so I don't know, but if that's true it complicates the whole thing even further because
sheCameron may have jumped farther back in time than Jesse or Derek but actually have done it from a place farther forward in time than either of them.I have no faith that any of that made any sense. Apologies. It's early and I'm woefully undercaffeinated.
no subject
on 2008-12-06 08:42 pm (UTC)Don't forget about bloody future soldier, though. I think that was a pretty big clue that the future had changed for the worse. My assumption is that he got shot as he was going through, which would mean either the resistance's time travel facility was being overrun by metal at the time or, more likely (I think) there was a battle raging between 2 factions of the resistance. If my theory is true, I fully expect a reveal at some point that it was Jesse herself who shot that soldier as he was going through. And then she probably followed him.
I've also thought about Jesse's future!John/Cameron comments and have wondered if she comes from a future where Cameron has been with John for 20 years. I discounted it, though, because then it wouldn't have made sense for Jesse to say to Derek: "imagine what he'll be like if he spends the next 20 years with her." For Jesse to come from a future where that was true and then say that to present day Derek would mean she already knew they were from different futures. And no matter how much she may lie or pretend, I don't think she could know that. So it's probably just that in Jesse's future, John captures and reprograms Cameron sooner than that he did in Derek's future. His use of the metal has been going on longer and is more widespread and problematic.
Your idea of Cameron coming from a point further ahead in time is a cool one. That's not a possibility I'd even considered. So far, everyone seems to have come from 2027, but that could make things interesting if one of the mysteries surrounding Cameron is that she's from a later date. I'm not sure what the implications of that could be, but I think I like how that could set her apart from all the other time jumpers in terms of what she knows about future war eventualities. If the future keeps changing, Cameron could have come from one in which everything is the reverse of Kyle's experience in T1. Instead of the resistance having practically won the war, it could be that Skynet had practically won the war and Cameron came through in a last ditch effort to reverse things.