You are indeed correct, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I do agree both viewpoints are supportable but I think mine fits more of the facts, both at the time and in retrospect - and, more importantly, in the context of the case of a war for survival.
* Andy - killing him could not be a bad thing except from the POV of loss of a life, there was every reason to suppose Andy's death would at the very least delay Judgment Day if not prevent it outright. And this was more than just killing an innocent - in Derek's future, Andy was Billy Wisher and a very close friend of Derek's. Sarah's choice was logically the wrong one even in the light of the Dyson experience. The fact that Dyson dying hadn't stopped JD is neither here nor there - they knew the Turk would lead to Skynet and the stakes were far too high not to make the attempt to destroy it. (If we follow your logic we inevitably assume Skynet is unstoppable whatever your actions are in the past, which makes any attempt in any manner to stop Skynet pointless.) Strike one for Sarah. So Derek bottles up his feelings and has the 1000yd Stare. Who's shoulder is he gonna to cry on? Sarah's? He's a soldier, he has his duty.
* Killing the cops. Absolutely 100% tactically the correct thing todo for their mission. Sarah was taking a big risk (an insane crazy risk) not just with hers and Derek's lives but with their mission - to save the human race from genocide. Armed and trained men who were ready and able to kill you and you take a chance with them? Stupid if not outright suicidal. It's yet another example of Sarah as a potential liability to John and the mission. Strike two for Sarah. (Yeah, I know in TV shows the bad guys always fall down and stay down if a 120lb women taps them on the neck but actually not so much in reality.)
* Moishe - he was a loose end that knew about the Connors - what happened, for instance with the guy Sarah let go in the Bowling Alley? Derek (and Jesse) know how Terminators work. Again, hit for Derek, strike three for Sarah.
* Fischer - again, Derek was correct on this one. Logically, killing young Fischer would prevent whatever nefarious stuff old Fischer would get up to. The only fly in the ointment there is that it's a Grandfather Paradox. I thought that Jesse knew something about mechanics of time travel that nobody else did. Now I think it was Jesse showing her good side. Despite her insane Riley plan she was very like Derek in her way and had a sense of justice - she balked at Queeg's summary execution of the sailor for instance. But she really believed she had to separate John and Cameron at any cost and, even more importantly, make John stop using metal soldiers. (Sarah would have frakked that one up too, of course.)
The point about Riley was it was a crazy plan that made no sense and risked the life not just of Riley but of John. (According to what John said to Riley it stood no possible chance of working anyway. If nothing else you can't blame a Terminator for killing, it's what they do, and John is smart enough to know that.) Riley really was an innocent girl that Jesse had deliberately lead astray. In any case, in the context of the talk Jesse and Derek had about Riley's death what Derek said about no good coming from the death of an innocent girl in no way contradicted anything he had done. As far as anyone knew, Riley was not any kind of soldier or even, at that point so far as Derek knew, any kind of actor in the Judgment Day scenario. So far as Derek knew Riley was just some random girl who liked John.
Derek had to kill Jesse once he knew what she was. Jesse hadn't recanted on her plan. She was still against John Connor. She was a loose canon that had proven ill intent towards John and was far too great a risk to the mission to be left alive. And Derek knew that, even if this Jesse loved him, she lied to him and he couldn't trust anything she said.
Sarah, of course, won't understand any of this and will royally frak things up as a consequence.
BTW, someone in the comments @ the Terminator official blog says "Strange Things Happen at the One Two Point" (s02e10) is the ep where John twigs to Riley, re the conversation about the Bear poster. He says he watched it again and thinks John freaked over that.
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ninetydegrees
Re: "Today is the Day 1 & 2" TSCC
on 2009-03-22 10:26 pm (UTC)* Andy - killing him could not be a bad thing except from the POV of loss of a life, there was every reason to suppose Andy's death would at the very least delay Judgment Day if not prevent it outright. And this was more than just killing an innocent - in Derek's future, Andy was Billy Wisher and a very close friend of Derek's. Sarah's choice was logically the wrong one even in the light of the Dyson experience. The fact that Dyson dying hadn't stopped JD is neither here nor there - they knew the Turk would lead to Skynet and the stakes were far too high not to make the attempt to destroy it. (If we follow your logic we inevitably assume Skynet is unstoppable whatever your actions are in the past, which makes any attempt in any manner to stop Skynet pointless.) Strike one for Sarah. So Derek bottles up his feelings and has the 1000yd Stare. Who's shoulder is he gonna to cry on? Sarah's? He's a soldier, he has his duty.
* Killing the cops. Absolutely 100% tactically the correct thing todo for their mission. Sarah was taking a big risk (an insane crazy risk) not just with hers and Derek's lives but with their mission - to save the human race from genocide. Armed and trained men who were ready and able to kill you and you take a chance with them? Stupid if not outright suicidal. It's yet another example of Sarah as a potential liability to John and the mission. Strike two for Sarah. (Yeah, I know in TV shows the bad guys always fall down and stay down if a 120lb women taps them on the neck but actually not so much in reality.)
* Moishe - he was a loose end that knew about the Connors - what happened, for instance with the guy Sarah let go in the Bowling Alley? Derek (and Jesse) know how Terminators work. Again, hit for Derek, strike three for Sarah.
* Fischer - again, Derek was correct on this one. Logically, killing young Fischer would prevent whatever nefarious stuff old Fischer would get up to. The only fly in the ointment there is that it's a Grandfather Paradox. I thought that Jesse knew something about mechanics of time travel that nobody else did. Now I think it was Jesse showing her good side. Despite her insane Riley plan she was very like Derek in her way and had a sense of justice - she balked at Queeg's summary execution of the sailor for instance. But she really believed she had to separate John and Cameron at any cost and, even more importantly, make John stop using metal soldiers. (Sarah would have frakked that one up too, of course.)
The point about Riley was it was a crazy plan that made no sense and risked the life not just of Riley but of John. (According to what John said to Riley it stood no possible chance of working anyway. If nothing else you can't blame a Terminator for killing, it's what they do, and John is smart enough to know that.) Riley really was an innocent girl that Jesse had deliberately lead astray. In any case, in the context of the talk Jesse and Derek had about Riley's death what Derek said about no good coming from the death of an innocent girl in no way contradicted anything he had done. As far as anyone knew, Riley was not any kind of soldier or even, at that point so far as Derek knew, any kind of actor in the Judgment Day scenario. So far as Derek knew Riley was just some random girl who liked John.
Derek had to kill Jesse once he knew what she was. Jesse hadn't recanted on her plan. She was still against John Connor. She was a loose canon that had proven ill intent towards John and was far too great a risk to the mission to be left alive. And Derek knew that, even if this Jesse loved him, she lied to him and he couldn't trust anything she said.
Sarah, of course, won't understand any of this and will royally frak things up as a consequence.
Re: "Today is the Day 1 & 2" TSCC
on 2009-03-22 10:43 pm (UTC)