I don't think Derek as wrong to kill Andy from the POV he had, but from the POV we have, I do think it was wrong. I understand that innocents sometimes die in war and it's unavoidable because you have to do what you have to do for the greater good. I get that, I really do. And Derek had every reason to believe he was saving the world by killing Andy. But because we have the Dyson thing in T2 to look back on, we already know that the death of the man most directly responsible for Skynet didn't stop j-day, so there was no reason to believe that the death of Andy Goode would stop it either. Sarah had that experience to base her decision on. Not killing Andy was the right choice from her POV. That's the interesting thing about Andy's death. It was right *and* wrong.
But it was Derek's attempt to kill the cops under city hall and his lack of emotion over killing Andy that really established him and a cold killer for me, and not a soldier with a heart of gold. And even after he remembered the horror of buddies dying in future war (in Goodbye to all that), we still got him going to kill Moishe in Brothers of Nablus (except Jesse beat him to it). I don't see how killing Moishe was necessary even from Derek's POV. He'd already covered up the thing about him mentioning Jesse by telling Sarah that Jesse was a guy from his crew that got killed.
From Derek's POV, I could maybe even give him an "understandable" pass on attempting to kill young Fisher. But the Moishe thing no. That ruins the idea that Derek was starting to differentiate between taking innocent life and taking life for the sake of the mission. So I still found it too big of a leap last week when he was so adamant that the loss of any innocent life was tragic.
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this, but feel free to get in the last word if you want. I'll read it if you do.
You are indeed correct, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I do agree both viewpoints are supportable but I think mine fits more of the facts, both at the time and in retrospect - and, more importantly, in the context of the case of a war for survival.
* Andy - killing him could not be a bad thing except from the POV of loss of a life, there was every reason to suppose Andy's death would at the very least delay Judgment Day if not prevent it outright. And this was more than just killing an innocent - in Derek's future, Andy was Billy Wisher and a very close friend of Derek's. Sarah's choice was logically the wrong one even in the light of the Dyson experience. The fact that Dyson dying hadn't stopped JD is neither here nor there - they knew the Turk would lead to Skynet and the stakes were far too high not to make the attempt to destroy it. (If we follow your logic we inevitably assume Skynet is unstoppable whatever your actions are in the past, which makes any attempt in any manner to stop Skynet pointless.) Strike one for Sarah. So Derek bottles up his feelings and has the 1000yd Stare. Who's shoulder is he gonna to cry on? Sarah's? He's a soldier, he has his duty.
* Killing the cops. Absolutely 100% tactically the correct thing todo for their mission. Sarah was taking a big risk (an insane crazy risk) not just with hers and Derek's lives but with their mission - to save the human race from genocide. Armed and trained men who were ready and able to kill you and you take a chance with them? Stupid if not outright suicidal. It's yet another example of Sarah as a potential liability to John and the mission. Strike two for Sarah. (Yeah, I know in TV shows the bad guys always fall down and stay down if a 120lb women taps them on the neck but actually not so much in reality.)
* Moishe - he was a loose end that knew about the Connors - what happened, for instance with the guy Sarah let go in the Bowling Alley? Derek (and Jesse) know how Terminators work. Again, hit for Derek, strike three for Sarah.
* Fischer - again, Derek was correct on this one. Logically, killing young Fischer would prevent whatever nefarious stuff old Fischer would get up to. The only fly in the ointment there is that it's a Grandfather Paradox. I thought that Jesse knew something about mechanics of time travel that nobody else did. Now I think it was Jesse showing her good side. Despite her insane Riley plan she was very like Derek in her way and had a sense of justice - she balked at Queeg's summary execution of the sailor for instance. But she really believed she had to separate John and Cameron at any cost and, even more importantly, make John stop using metal soldiers. (Sarah would have frakked that one up too, of course.)
The point about Riley was it was a crazy plan that made no sense and risked the life not just of Riley but of John. (According to what John said to Riley it stood no possible chance of working anyway. If nothing else you can't blame a Terminator for killing, it's what they do, and John is smart enough to know that.) Riley really was an innocent girl that Jesse had deliberately lead astray. In any case, in the context of the talk Jesse and Derek had about Riley's death what Derek said about no good coming from the death of an innocent girl in no way contradicted anything he had done. As far as anyone knew, Riley was not any kind of soldier or even, at that point so far as Derek knew, any kind of actor in the Judgment Day scenario. So far as Derek knew Riley was just some random girl who liked John.
Derek had to kill Jesse once he knew what she was. Jesse hadn't recanted on her plan. She was still against John Connor. She was a loose canon that had proven ill intent towards John and was far too great a risk to the mission to be left alive. And Derek knew that, even if this Jesse loved him, she lied to him and he couldn't trust anything she said.
Sarah, of course, won't understand any of this and will royally frak things up as a consequence.
BTW, someone in the comments @ the Terminator official blog says "Strange Things Happen at the One Two Point" (s02e10) is the ep where John twigs to Riley, re the conversation about the Bear poster. He says he watched it again and thinks John freaked over that.
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roxybisquaint) wrote2009-03-21 01:49 am
Re: "Today is the Day 1 & 2" TSCC
But it was Derek's attempt to kill the cops under city hall and his lack of emotion over killing Andy that really established him and a cold killer for me, and not a soldier with a heart of gold. And even after he remembered the horror of buddies dying in future war (in Goodbye to all that), we still got him going to kill Moishe in Brothers of Nablus (except Jesse beat him to it). I don't see how killing Moishe was necessary even from Derek's POV. He'd already covered up the thing about him mentioning Jesse by telling Sarah that Jesse was a guy from his crew that got killed.
From Derek's POV, I could maybe even give him an "understandable" pass on attempting to kill young Fisher. But the Moishe thing no. That ruins the idea that Derek was starting to differentiate between taking innocent life and taking life for the sake of the mission. So I still found it too big of a leap last week when he was so adamant that the loss of any innocent life was tragic.
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this, but feel free to get in the last word if you want. I'll read it if you do.
Re: "Today is the Day 1 & 2" TSCC
* Andy - killing him could not be a bad thing except from the POV of loss of a life, there was every reason to suppose Andy's death would at the very least delay Judgment Day if not prevent it outright. And this was more than just killing an innocent - in Derek's future, Andy was Billy Wisher and a very close friend of Derek's. Sarah's choice was logically the wrong one even in the light of the Dyson experience. The fact that Dyson dying hadn't stopped JD is neither here nor there - they knew the Turk would lead to Skynet and the stakes were far too high not to make the attempt to destroy it. (If we follow your logic we inevitably assume Skynet is unstoppable whatever your actions are in the past, which makes any attempt in any manner to stop Skynet pointless.) Strike one for Sarah. So Derek bottles up his feelings and has the 1000yd Stare. Who's shoulder is he gonna to cry on? Sarah's? He's a soldier, he has his duty.
* Killing the cops. Absolutely 100% tactically the correct thing todo for their mission. Sarah was taking a big risk (an insane crazy risk) not just with hers and Derek's lives but with their mission - to save the human race from genocide. Armed and trained men who were ready and able to kill you and you take a chance with them? Stupid if not outright suicidal. It's yet another example of Sarah as a potential liability to John and the mission. Strike two for Sarah. (Yeah, I know in TV shows the bad guys always fall down and stay down if a 120lb women taps them on the neck but actually not so much in reality.)
* Moishe - he was a loose end that knew about the Connors - what happened, for instance with the guy Sarah let go in the Bowling Alley? Derek (and Jesse) know how Terminators work. Again, hit for Derek, strike three for Sarah.
* Fischer - again, Derek was correct on this one. Logically, killing young Fischer would prevent whatever nefarious stuff old Fischer would get up to. The only fly in the ointment there is that it's a Grandfather Paradox. I thought that Jesse knew something about mechanics of time travel that nobody else did. Now I think it was Jesse showing her good side. Despite her insane Riley plan she was very like Derek in her way and had a sense of justice - she balked at Queeg's summary execution of the sailor for instance. But she really believed she had to separate John and Cameron at any cost and, even more importantly, make John stop using metal soldiers. (Sarah would have frakked that one up too, of course.)
The point about Riley was it was a crazy plan that made no sense and risked the life not just of Riley but of John. (According to what John said to Riley it stood no possible chance of working anyway. If nothing else you can't blame a Terminator for killing, it's what they do, and John is smart enough to know that.) Riley really was an innocent girl that Jesse had deliberately lead astray. In any case, in the context of the talk Jesse and Derek had about Riley's death what Derek said about no good coming from the death of an innocent girl in no way contradicted anything he had done. As far as anyone knew, Riley was not any kind of soldier or even, at that point so far as Derek knew, any kind of actor in the Judgment Day scenario. So far as Derek knew Riley was just some random girl who liked John.
Derek had to kill Jesse once he knew what she was. Jesse hadn't recanted on her plan. She was still against John Connor. She was a loose canon that had proven ill intent towards John and was far too great a risk to the mission to be left alive. And Derek knew that, even if this Jesse loved him, she lied to him and he couldn't trust anything she said.
Sarah, of course, won't understand any of this and will royally frak things up as a consequence.
Re: "Today is the Day 1 & 2" TSCC