Reposted from the last thread because this seems where all the cool kids are posting now.
Dollhouse's 13th episode was produced with a skeleton budget. Joss relied heavily on that for his pitch for Season 2 - demonstrating he could produce the show for much less. A deal was worked out in which Fox shoulders a lower percentage of the cost.
My question for you guys (I do not intend this as flame bait at all, it's an honest question) is this: judging from various comments across the board, it's pretty obvious by this point that what really sealed the deal on the show was the middle Sarah arc, which disappointed most of the target demographic at a time when they really needed to be revitalized.
If hypothetically, you had a choice to get 9 more episodes of average level Sarah-centric-ness, at the cost of the middle Sarah Arc getting replaced by something with lots of explosions and Summer Glau, would you do it? Would you answer change depending on how many more episodes could be guarranteed?
it's pretty obvious by this point that what really sealed the deal on the show was the middle Sarah arc, which disappointed most of the target demographic at a time when they really needed to be revitalized
Ouch. That's a sensitive topic for today, especially considering how that was the rallying cry from some of the most hateful posts about this show ever made by "fans" (in quotes because the comments I read over and over again went beyond critical into pure meanness). I personally loved those 3 Sarah-heavy episodes: Earthlings, Good Wound, Some Must Watch. In terms of her character, they were powerful and important. Those 3 plus To the Lighhouse and Adam Raised a Cain were my favorites of this season.
But even if most fans didn't like those 3 episodes, the ratings did not take a dive because of them. So at most, I think one could argue that had we come into the back 9 with Lighthouse or Adam Raised a Cain kind of universal appeal, the OMG AWESOME SHOW buzz might've helped pick up a few more viewers. But what it have picked up enough viewers to seal the deal for a 3rd season? Really unlikely. I believe Fox's interference in the creative direction of the show, misguided marketing and a bad time slot are the reason TSCC is now gone. Fox never understood the show and they tried to make it into something it wasn't.
If hypothetically, you had a choice to get 9 more episodes of average level Sarah-centric-ness, at the cost of the middle Sarah Arc getting replaced by something with lots of explosions and Summer Glau, would you do it? Would you answer change depending on how many more episodes could be guarranteed?
If I had to trade the Sarah drama arc for a Cameron action arc, then no. I loved the action and explosions, but wouldn't have wanted more of it in exchange for less drama. I think that would be selling out the heart of the show. Also, if by average level Sarah-centricness you mean watering down Sarah, then again no. I always felt she was the central character and wouldn't want another season if it meant she wasn't. I mean that. If this show had to be something it wasn't in order to continue, it's probably best that we ended here (although I wish I'd loved the finale).
But I think what you're getting at is that season 2 lacked the perfect balance of character, drama and action that season 1 had. And I totally agree. If I had control of this hypothetical hindsight redo, season 2 would be different. Much of the problems it did have, though, I blame on Fox, not the writers. For the most part, I think they did an amazing job in dealing with the changes that were forced on them. If only Fox had kept their fucking idiotic ideas out of it I think the show would've been a lot strong and we'd have a 3rd season.
First, apologies for bringing this up so bluntly. After I reposted this I realized it was a kind of cruel time to focus on it, but I want to rant about something Terminator and "OMG FOX IS DUMB!!!#$@#$" doesn't really cut it.
It's not so much that I think Season 2 lacked the right balance of character/drama/action. (Overall I still highly prefer Season 2 to 1. I like the episodes that focus on individual characters. Season 1 didn't give us enough of WHY there was anything to know about these characters we didn't already know from Terminator 2 and could have guessed based on stereotypical stor arcs).
It's that the location of those things were not where they needed to be in the season. And I don't think that was Fox's fault. The only creative control they exerted over it (to my knowledge) was to have more episodic stories in the beginning, which I think was absolutely the right call. Some of my favorite episodes were the singletons in the first half of the season. I don't think the season suffered for them at all.
But the team approached the season arc as if there was not a giant hiatus in the middle of it. Which was a huge mistake. When your season is gonna be chopped in half, especially if you're ratings are so low, I think you absolutely need to approach it as having a mid-season climax and an exciting Spring Half intro. (And yes, Lighthouse and Adam Raised a Cain are exactly what we needed).
Around the middle of the season was where a lot of fans started realizing [i]Oh crap they're seriously gonna cancel this and this is seriously getting really good I need to grab my friends and make them watch[/i], and unfortunately it came at a time when you COULDN'T really sit your friends down and make them watch because Season 2.5 started out in the middle of a story.
I really just flat out disagree. I don't remember exactly what the ratings were in the fall on Mondays, but I think we averaged about 5.5 - 6 million viewers. On Fridays for the back 9, I think we averaged about 4 - 4.5 million viewers. It didn't drop because of the Sarah arc, it dropped because of the move. It was a very clear correlation.
If all the Monday viewers had followed it to Fridays, we'd still be on the air. But they didn't. And if they didn't care about it enough to follow after the first 13, I don't see how anything being done differently in episode 14 was going to change that.
Even so, The Good Wound had a lot of buzz ahead of time because the previews at the end of Earthlings showed that Kyle was going to be in it with Sarah. Everyone was intrigued and speculating all through the winter break. So it's kind of irrelevant if anyone even liked it after the fact. If they didn't tune in to find out whether Kyle was real or not, I don't think they were coming back regardless.
It's not like the entire season sucked and then suddenly got good at the end. Those final 3 eps had extra wow to them, but that's typical of every show on TV (or at least they all try to do that). You always build up excitement as you roll into your finale.
When you take a show and move it to a bad slot, you pare the viewership down from people who like it to just the core followers. So what I guess Fox gambled on is that the vast majority of viewers on Monday nights were core followers. Clearly they were wrong on that.
I am guilty of this, but I did watch every single episode and was obsessed with the characters and thats all that should matter to them.
It probably went too far past the original concept and the budget in season 2. It worked when it was its own show.
I would trade out some of the Sarah only episodes for more Summer seperates if they hadn't treated her like crap sometimes (laundry? trust, identity problems). I liked her when she was being a real Terminator on missions or learning about friendship.
Ultimately, I preferred John + Sarah running & gunning with Cameron.
I think there were some definite pacing problems. But really the ratings trend wasn't changing enough no matter what was on.
Some of the very best and beloved Cameron episodes were equally introspective to the Sarah ones and as a big Cameron fan I'd say loosing that for "MOaR AcTIoNZ NAo!1!" would be a crime in itself.
This whole experience is just making me loose faith in humanity. I am just coming to realize that every show I cared for -- save precious few exceptions -- has been canceled prematurely. And I'm realizing it's likely always going to be this way as long as they rely on Joe Average the moron to decide the ratings.
Some of the very best and beloved Cameron episodes were equally introspective to the Sarah ones and as a big Cameron fan I'd say loosing that for "MOaR AcTIoNZ NAo!1!" would be a crime in itself.
Exactly. TSCC was really about the characters, their struggles and their relationships with each other. I loved Cameron and her awesomeness was second only to Sarah's to me.
Allison from Palmdale with never be a personal favorite of mine because I'm a super Sarah fan and she got very little use in that one. But it was a brilliant episode and truly one of the best of the season. And that episode was the Cameron equivalent of one of the Sarah episodes that people complained about.
I think no matter how you look at it, Fox's stupidity and the stupidity of audiences who would rather watch reality TV or canned laughter took our show away from us. I haven't lost faith in hunanity, though. It just makes me realize how much more intelligent I am — that all us TSCC fans are than most of it ;)
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Dollhouse's 13th episode was produced with a skeleton budget. Joss relied heavily on that for his pitch for Season 2 - demonstrating he could produce the show for much less. A deal was worked out in which Fox shoulders a lower percentage of the cost.
My question for you guys (I do not intend this as flame bait at all, it's an honest question) is this: judging from various comments across the board, it's pretty obvious by this point that what really sealed the deal on the show was the middle Sarah arc, which disappointed most of the target demographic at a time when they really needed to be revitalized.
If hypothetically, you had a choice to get 9 more episodes of average level Sarah-centric-ness, at the cost of the middle Sarah Arc getting replaced by something with lots of explosions and Summer Glau, would you do it? Would you answer change depending on how many more episodes could be guarranteed?
no subject
Ouch. That's a sensitive topic for today, especially considering how that was the rallying cry from some of the most hateful posts about this show ever made by "fans" (in quotes because the comments I read over and over again went beyond critical into pure meanness). I personally loved those 3 Sarah-heavy episodes: Earthlings, Good Wound, Some Must Watch. In terms of her character, they were powerful and important. Those 3 plus To the Lighhouse and Adam Raised a Cain were my favorites of this season.
But even if most fans didn't like those 3 episodes, the ratings did not take a dive because of them. So at most, I think one could argue that had we come into the back 9 with Lighthouse or Adam Raised a Cain kind of universal appeal, the OMG AWESOME SHOW buzz might've helped pick up a few more viewers. But what it have picked up enough viewers to seal the deal for a 3rd season? Really unlikely. I believe Fox's interference in the creative direction of the show, misguided marketing and a bad time slot are the reason TSCC is now gone. Fox never understood the show and they tried to make it into something it wasn't.
If hypothetically, you had a choice to get 9 more episodes of average level Sarah-centric-ness, at the cost of the middle Sarah Arc getting replaced by something with lots of explosions and Summer Glau, would you do it? Would you answer change depending on how many more episodes could be guarranteed?
If I had to trade the Sarah drama arc for a Cameron action arc, then no. I loved the action and explosions, but wouldn't have wanted more of it in exchange for less drama. I think that would be selling out the heart of the show. Also, if by average level Sarah-centricness you mean watering down Sarah, then again no. I always felt she was the central character and wouldn't want another season if it meant she wasn't. I mean that. If this show had to be something it wasn't in order to continue, it's probably best that we ended here (although I wish I'd loved the finale).
But I think what you're getting at is that season 2 lacked the perfect balance of character, drama and action that season 1 had. And I totally agree. If I had control of this hypothetical hindsight redo, season 2 would be different. Much of the problems it did have, though, I blame on Fox, not the writers. For the most part, I think they did an amazing job in dealing with the changes that were forced on them. If only Fox had kept their fucking idiotic ideas out of it I think the show would've been a lot strong and we'd have a 3rd season.
no subject
It's not so much that I think Season 2 lacked the right balance of character/drama/action. (Overall I still highly prefer Season 2 to 1. I like the episodes that focus on individual characters. Season 1 didn't give us enough of WHY there was anything to know about these characters we didn't already know from Terminator 2 and could have guessed based on stereotypical stor arcs).
It's that the location of those things were not where they needed to be in the season. And I don't think that was Fox's fault. The only creative control they exerted over it (to my knowledge) was to have more episodic stories in the beginning, which I think was absolutely the right call. Some of my favorite episodes were the singletons in the first half of the season. I don't think the season suffered for them at all.
But the team approached the season arc as if there was not a giant hiatus in the middle of it. Which was a huge mistake. When your season is gonna be chopped in half, especially if you're ratings are so low, I think you absolutely need to approach it as having a mid-season climax and an exciting Spring Half intro. (And yes, Lighthouse and Adam Raised a Cain are exactly what we needed).
Around the middle of the season was where a lot of fans started realizing [i]Oh crap they're seriously gonna cancel this and this is seriously getting really good I need to grab my friends and make them watch[/i], and unfortunately it came at a time when you COULDN'T really sit your friends down and make them watch because Season 2.5 started out in the middle of a story.
no subject
If all the Monday viewers had followed it to Fridays, we'd still be on the air. But they didn't. And if they didn't care about it enough to follow after the first 13, I don't see how anything being done differently in episode 14 was going to change that.
Even so, The Good Wound had a lot of buzz ahead of time because the previews at the end of Earthlings showed that Kyle was going to be in it with Sarah. Everyone was intrigued and speculating all through the winter break. So it's kind of irrelevant if anyone even liked it after the fact. If they didn't tune in to find out whether Kyle was real or not, I don't think they were coming back regardless.
It's not like the entire season sucked and then suddenly got good at the end. Those final 3 eps had extra wow to them, but that's typical of every show on TV (or at least they all try to do that). You always build up excitement as you roll into your finale.
When you take a show and move it to a bad slot, you pare the viewership down from people who like it to just the core followers. So what I guess Fox gambled on is that the vast majority of viewers on Monday nights were core followers. Clearly they were wrong on that.
no subject
It probably went too far past the original concept and the budget in season 2. It worked when it was its own show.
I would trade out some of the Sarah only episodes for more Summer seperates if they hadn't treated her like crap sometimes (laundry? trust, identity problems). I liked her when she was being a real Terminator on missions or learning about friendship.
Ultimately, I preferred John + Sarah running & gunning with Cameron.
no subject
Some of the very best and beloved Cameron episodes were equally introspective to the Sarah ones and as a big Cameron fan I'd say loosing that for "MOaR AcTIoNZ NAo!1!" would be a crime in itself.
This whole experience is just making me loose faith in humanity. I am just coming to realize that every show I cared for -- save precious few exceptions -- has been canceled prematurely. And I'm realizing it's likely always going to be this way as long as they rely on Joe Average the moron to decide the ratings.
no subject
Exactly. TSCC was really about the characters, their struggles and their relationships with each other. I loved Cameron and her awesomeness was second only to Sarah's to me.
Allison from Palmdale with never be a personal favorite of mine because I'm a super Sarah fan and she got very little use in that one. But it was a brilliant episode and truly one of the best of the season. And that episode was the Cameron equivalent of one of the Sarah episodes that people complained about.
I think no matter how you look at it, Fox's stupidity and the stupidity of audiences who would rather watch reality TV or canned laughter took our show away from us. I haven't lost faith in hunanity, though. It just makes me realize how much more intelligent I am — that all us TSCC fans are than most of it ;)